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 Motors/Gearing/Drivetrain
 Help Me Mod My Razor e300s!
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SwitchyMcSwitcher
Starting Member






7 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2009 :  08:12:33  Show Profile
I want to mod my e300s to have real hill-climbing torque. I would be fine with a slight decrease in top speed and battery life. I have never modded a scooter before, but have decent mechanical ability and have done basic maintenance on motorcycles. Here are my goals:

1. Big increase in torque to carry 200 lbs up steep hills
2. Slight decrease in top speed and battery life is fine
3. Relatively quick and easy procedure
4. I want to keep using the stock 24v battery and controller
5. Keep the cost to $80 or under for parts (less expensive is better)

My favored approaches:

1. Add a better motor and
2. Change one or more sprockets to lower the gearing

Please advise on what to do and what parts to order and from where. I'm currently looking at parts at http://tncscooters.com/partsdb.php?type=ES.

Thanks in advance for any help!

-Switchy

gameboy
Administrator

just north of austin
tx
USA

1624 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2009 :  08:34:44  Show Profile
your best bet is to increase your rear spocket size. i think a 55 is on there now. so if you go to a 65, 68, 72 or even an 80 tooth sprocket you would see more power coming out of your scooter.

now for the motor, i think stock they come with a 250 watt motor so if you go with a 350watt motor that would increase your final wattage, but you would need a controller to go with that. if you go the motor and controller route i would get a 500 watt or larger controller to give the motor all that it needs. also if you do this one drawback is it will reduce your runtime since you have increased your output.

your cheapest route is the rear sprocket, the most power out put is the motor and controller route.
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ruthlessrider100
Journeyman Modder

walnut creek
california
USA

250 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2009 :  11:55:33  Show Profile

I would overvolt the motor and change the gearing.you can probably pic
up a 24v 350w motor,rear sprocket,and 3rd battery for about 80 bux you could also
Advance the timing of the motor to get a little more out of it.

Modified razor e300, curie phat e (under construction)
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gameboy
Administrator

just north of austin
tx
USA

1624 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2009 :  13:58:40  Show Profile
thats another way to do it, but i think he was wanting an easy way for a beginner. after he gets his feet wet, that would be a coolway of doing it.
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ruthlessrider100
Journeyman Modder

walnut creek
california
USA

250 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2009 :  17:35:27  Show Profile
That's true.I consider myself a beginner when it comes to anything electrical,however I have found
So much help from the info on this site as well as great advice from members including you gameboy.at the same time I wouldn't
Recommend anyone doing anything they aren't comfortable with.if you have any questions about anything,
no matter how dumb you may think it is,just ask.Its worked for me, there are many here who can help so don't be afraid to ask.

Modified razor e300, curie phat e (under construction)
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SwitchyMcSwitcher
Starting Member






7 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2009 :  00:27:42  Show Profile
Thanks gameboy and rr100!

TNC scooters said that a larger motor won't fit on the e300 and suggested a larger sprocket for the wheel. They asked me to count the teeth on the stock sprocket so they can suggest another one. I'm fairly certain that it is a 55-tooth sprocket. Can anyone confirm this to save me the trouble of taking the chain off?

I am interested in overvolting the motor, but have a couple questions:

1. Will the stock charger still work if I install a 36v controller and third 12v battery?

2. Will the third battery fit inside the battery compartment?

I don't really want to adjust the timing on the motor, as I feel funny grinding a piece off such an essential part for what seems to be a relatively small gain.

Also, what sprocket size would people suggest? I'm leaning toward 72-tooth to get a significant boost in torque. Can anyone figure out what the top speed would be with that change?

Please keep the ideas coming. I'm considering everything at this point.

Thanks again,

-Switchy

Edited by - SwitchyMcSwitcher on 03/21/2009 00:29:59
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SwitchyMcSwitcher
Starting Member






7 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2009 :  01:22:32  Show Profile
I just ordered 65-tooth and 80-tooth sprockets and extra chain to reduce the gearing as a first try. We'll see if that works...

-Switchy
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sdubb
Journeyman Modder


AZ
USA



259 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2009 :  04:57:01  Show Profile
Did you get the chain breaker tool?
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SwitchyMcSwitcher
Starting Member






7 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2009 :  07:08:55  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by sdubb

Did you get the chain breaker tool?



Yep.

-Switchy
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SwitchyMcSwitcher
Starting Member






7 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2009 :  15:05:32  Show Profile
I installed the new sprocket (80-tooth) and have a significant increase in torque. Speed was reduced only slightly.

The two downsides are that the chainguard won't fit anymore, and the new sprocket doesn't have a hole for the air-valve extender, so I'll have to remove the wheel whenever I need to add air to the tire.

Based on initial testing, I probably have accomplished what I needed to, but am still interested in easy and low-cost ways to boost power further.

Question: I have heard that electric scooters perform better in warmer weather due to the fact that optimal operating temperature for lead-acid batteries is 77F. I've been using it in 55-60 degree temps. Am I likely to see any improvement at 75-80?

Also, are there affordable "high-performance" batteries for the Razor e300?

Thanks,

-Switchy
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gameboy
Administrator

just north of austin
tx
USA

1624 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2009 :  16:26:49  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by SwitchyMcSwitcher


1 - the new sprocket doesn't have a hole for the air-valve extender, so I'll have to remove the wheel whenever I need to add air to the tire.

Question:

2 - I have heard that electric scooters perform better in warmer weather due to the fact that optimal operating temperature for lead-acid batteries is 77F. I've been using it in 55-60 degree temps. Am I likely to see any improvement at 75-80?

3 - Also, are there affordable "high-performance" batteries for the Razor e300?




1 - use the old sprocket as a template and drill a new hole. it wont affect the sprocket

2 - i wouldnt think it would be that noticable, since the temp your using it now at is only a few degrees different

3 - there are no "high-performance" batteries that i know of, but you can change the controller to allow more amps to reach the motor in a shorter amount of time which will give you better performance.
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mr_exon
AdvancedModder






622 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2009 :  04:47:08  Show Profile
the 80t over the 55t stock sprocket, the 80t will offer less rolling resistance and make for a smoother take off...gear it back to the same ratio as stock say a 13/80tooth combo and the scooter will do just over stock speed and have no hop and noise coming from the chain...

also, you dont need a chain breaker, I use side cutters(dykes) and pry at the links and they usallu pop on #25 sized chain easy...then use a pair of chanal locks and pop the link back on when you have the chain the right size.....I also use a jewlers grinder(3" table grinder "harber frate") if I need to cut large sections off....Dremels work too!

lastly..you want good batteries? look at SVR 14ah batteries(1000amp peaks and well beyond)
they may be a bit bigger then the 12v12ah stock ones, but they put out **** loads of power... if you want drycells go to a hobby stor and get acouple 18v5ah packs and a charger(will cost some cash though, like $900) other then that work with what you have and never ever add in more then what the bike is worth in mod parts, your not going to be racing so why invest so much money into a project when you could just go out and buy a high performance stock set up from a real company and not have to deal with over your head modding

your going to get zapped

Edited by - mr_exon on 03/29/2009 04:53:30
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polyscient
Journeyman Modder

Kenosha
WI
USA

157 Posts

Posted - 03/30/2009 :  19:39:10  Show Profile  Visit polyscient's Homepage
1000A out of a SLA, probably not. Unless you're melting it by putting a butterknife across the terminals (then yes). Maybe you meant Watts? SVR says 200 cold cranking amps on its website for the SVR 14, and that's only intended for a few seconds of use. That SVR 14 is indeed a nice battery though ($100) and I bet you could safely push 70A out of it continuously.

CSB battery lists continuous current specs on their high-rate 7Ah battery (same size as stock E300 battery) at up to 48.6A and on their 13Ah battery at up to 65A. This indicates that higher continuous currents are not safe for SLA's of those sizes. At those currents, the batteries above would be discharged in around 5 minutes. At high discharge rates, your batteries do not actually deliver their rated amp-hours of charge, but much less.

Anyway, to the guy whose thread this is, check out the sweet job ruthlessrider100 did on adding an extra battery to his E300 above the rear wheel: http://www.modifiedelectricscooters.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=454&whichpage=1

I would keep it simple though (two stock batteries) if you don't want to mess with a new charging system and new controller. I wouldn't put a new motor on that stock controller unless you're only going up to 350W. The limitations of the controller (30A) will neuter the upgrade and make you sad. Usually the controller is the limiting factor since batteries and motors are both capable of destroying themselves by pushing / drawing way more current than they are designed for (for motors this is limited by the input voltage, and for batteries it is only limited by the resistance of the butterknife/motor you're using to short out the terminals).

source of info, spec sheets from:
http://www.zbattery.com/Batteries/High-Rate-Discharge-12V-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Batteries

~Mike

"If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing."
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SwitchyMcSwitcher
Starting Member






7 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2009 :  00:10:26  Show Profile
Thanks to everyone for the advice! Since the scooter is basically doing what I want it to now, I think I'll stop my "upgrades" now, before I burn something up with electrical modifications.

-Switchy
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mr_exon
AdvancedModder






622 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2009 :  06:16:26  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by polyscient

1000A out of a SLA, probably not. Unless you're melting it by putting a butterknife across the terminals (then yes). Maybe you meant Watts? SVR says 200 cold cranking amps on its website for the SVR 14, and that's only intended for a few seconds of use. That SVR 14 is indeed a nice battery though ($100) and I bet you could safely push 70A out of it continuously.



Odyssey PC545MJ 12V 14AH SLA Battery
Part# 0B-PC545MJ

Some batteries provide enormous cranking power. Others, deep cycle reserve power. The revolutionary Odyssey battery is designed to do both.

The Odyssey battery ingeniously uses absorbed glass mat (AGM) technology to offer, in one box, the characteristics of two separate batteries. It can deep cycle as well as provide enormous cranking power. These batteries make use of fine mat separators (glass fiber) wherein sufficient electrolyte is absorbed to provide the longest life and steady service. This system prevents escape of electrolyte from the separator which causes leakage.

This battery includes a metal jacket. The metal jacket is needed if it's being mounted near heat to protect the plastic of the battery from swelling. The lead plates are under much higher pressure than a lead acid battery and if the plastic heats up, the plates will want to expand outward which can ruin the battery if it doesn't have a jacket.
Capacity 14AH
Voltage 12.0 V
Cranking Amps for 5sec 545
Cranking Amps for 10sec 495
Cranking Amps for 20sec 420
Cold Cranking Amps 185
Short Circuit Current over 1200A <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Reserve Capacity with 25A Load 18min
Size 7.0 x 3.38 x 5.13
Weight 12.6 lbs
Terminal Type M6 Female


Competition EV Battery 12V 14AH Sealed Lead-Acid AGM

Designation - SVR-14
Type - Sealed Lead-Acid AGM
Voltage - 12
Amp Hours - 14
Length - 5-13/16"
Width - 3-3/8"
Height - 5-7/8"
Weight - 11lbs. 8oz.

The ultimate high performance sealed AGM battery for all your high discharge needs. This battery was originally developed as a starting battery for a Major Motorcycle Manufacturer. It has been independently tested to 1500 peak amps without blowing the internal interconnects. 900 amps for 10 seconds has been demonstrated, which makes it an ideal battery for EV drag racing and other applications requiring a high discharge in a lightweight package. An excellent choice for high-performance electric bikes and scooters


POINT PROOVED......served...lol

[Quoted from family guy]You dont need an outside voice to tell you those feelings...Those feelings are inside you, what you call "GOD" is inside you, all of you..I cant stand seeing people hating and killing over there own interpitation of what they are not smart enuff to understand
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polyscient
Journeyman Modder

Kenosha
WI
USA

157 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2009 :  19:53:18  Show Profile  Visit polyscient's Homepage
That odyssey pc545 battery is cool. About $115 on ebay. The Odyssey battery format would be good for a performance electric motorcycle or car project.

~Mike

"If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing."
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mr_exon
AdvancedModder






622 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2009 :  04:14:37  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by polyscient

That odyssey pc545 battery is cool. About $115 on ebay. The Odyssey battery format would be good for a performance electric motorcycle or car project.

~Mike

"If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing."


lol not that small of a battery...you need 100+ah batteries for cars

but no one makes a better battery

[Quoted from family guy]You dont need an outside voice to tell you those feelings...Those feelings are inside you, what you call "GOD" is inside you, all of you..I cant stand seeing people hating and killing over there own interpitation of what they are not smart enuff to understand
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polyscient
Journeyman Modder

Kenosha
WI
USA

157 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2009 :  08:08:23  Show Profile  Visit polyscient's Homepage
Odyssey has 100AH and 200AH+ models, which was why I vaguely said the Odyssey battery format would be good for a car. Of course 14AH wouldn't be enough.

~Mike

"If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing."
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